چرا دارم اما شما تاریخ رو ظاهرا حداکثر از 150 سال اخیر به بعد میدونید....نوشته اصلی از سوی Kaveh
اینکه سفسطه است دوست عزیز...شما بگو کجاش یک جانبه هست.نویسنده هر کس که میخواد باشه!!!من هم میتونم بگم شما هم چون از طرفداران گروه مقابل لینک آوردید بی طرف نیستین!!!
میتوانید مهم نیست..وقتی آوردید در موردش صحبت میکنیم.شاید اونهایی که شما میارید به قول خود شما به فقط به ظاهر مستحکم باشند..
من همچین ادعایی نکردم که ظاهر و کلاس سایت مهم هست..اتفاقا من نظرم روی محتوای تاریخی بود.شما هم مطالتون رو از یه سری سایت آوردین مثل خود من!!!مهم این هست که ما از چه زاویه ای به موضوع نگاه میکنیم..
نکنه مطالبی که من مطرح کردم دیدگاه شخصی من بوده؟!ویکی پدیا یا غیر ویکی پدیا خودش منبع داره مهم نیست کی از کجا نقل قول میکنه مهم صحت تاریخی اون هست...
البته در مورد ویکی پدیا و اینکه مطالب اون تا چه حد قابل اعتماد و معتبر هستن نمیخوام بحثی کنم چون از مسیر اصلی خارج میشیم...اتفاقا من به همونجا و غیر اونجا مراجعه کردم و تاریخ رو هم مطالعه کردم اما نه مثل شما محدود به 150 سال اخیر.تاریخ که صرفا یه روایت هست و خودن مطلب از ویکی پدیا یا هر جای دیگه به تنهایی چیزی رو مشخص نمیکنه.بقیه اش استدلال من و شما نسبت به اون حوادث هست و بحث من و شما قاعدتا به این قسمت بر میگرده..
این پست رو احیانا بخونید متوجه میشید کدوم ادعا رو میگم.نمیخوام حرفام رو تکرار کنم.
کدوم اشتباه؟شما اون بخش از قطعنامه رو که دوست دارید پررنگ میکنید اما خط بعدش رو نمیگید که چی گفته!!حالا بند های دیگه قطعنامه رو که دیگه هیچی....بیشتر یه جور توهم توطئه که از روز اول هدف این بوده که بلای امروز رو سر عرب ها در بیارن...
(ظاهرا به نظر میرسه شما تفاوت Mandate for Palestine و British Mandate رو نمیدونید.من از شما خواستم ثابت کنید قضیه به همین شدت و حدتی که میگید هست و هدف این بوده که فقط منافع یهودی ها رو تامین کنن)
ضمنا همون جد اندر جد که فرمودین میشه بفرمایید محل زندگی یهودی ها کجای این کرده خاکی بوده و عرب ها از کی تشریف آوردن به همین منطقه مورد مناقشه؟!عثمانی نسبت به عرب فاتح بوده و حقی نداشته ولی عرب ها که قبل از اون تو قرن 7 میلادی که فاتح منطقه مورد مناقشه امروزی هست دیگه حق دارن؟چرا متناقض حرف میزنید دوست عزیز!!!
History of Israel
نه اتفاقا کشک حساب نشده و مشکل من با شما دقیقا همین قسمت هست...شما باید سیر حوادث رو دنبال کنید نه این جور حرف های بی منطق بزنید.اگه کشک حساب شده بوده در نهایت حتی یک متر هم زمین به عرب ها داد نمیشد!!!
لطف کنید وقتی نقل قولی میکنید اون بخش از متن رو بیارید تا من و بقیه دوستان بدونیم دقیقا چی نوشته شده...خب این نقل قول شما رو میتونم بگم کاملا کذب هست.من اون بخش از متن رو میارم:
Palestine is a Geographical Area, Not a NationalityArabs, the UN and its organs, and lately the International Court of Justice (ICJ) as well, have repeatedly claimed that the Palestinians are a native people – so much so that almost everyone takes it for granted.
The problem is that a stateless Palestinian people is a fabrication. The word Palestine is not even Arabic.12In a report by His Majesty’s Government in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to the Council of the League of Nations on the administration of Palestine and Trans-Jordan for the year 1938, the British made it clear: Palestine is not a State, it is the name of a geographical area.13
Palestine is a name coined by the Romans around 135 CE from the name of a seagoing Aegean people who settled on the coast of Canaan in antiquity – the Philistines. The name was chosen to replace Judea, as a sign that Jewish sovereignty had been eradicated following the Jewish Revolts against Rome.
In the course of time, the Latin name Philistia was further bastardized into Palistina or Palestine.14 During the next 2,000 years Palestine was never an independent state belonging to any people, nor did a Palestinian people distinct from other Arabs appear during 1,300 years of Muslim hegemony in Palestine under Arab and Ottoman rule. During that rule, local Arabs were actually considered part of, and subject to, the authority of Greater Syria ( Suriyya al-Kubra).15
Historically, before the Arabs fabricated the concept of Palestinian peoplehood as an exclusively Arab phenomenon, no such group existed. This is substantiated in countless official British Mandate-vintage documents that speak of the Jews and the Arabs of Palestine – not Jews and Palestinians.16
In fact, before local Jews began calling themselves Israelis in 1948 (when the name “Israel” was chosen for the newly-established Jewish State), the term “Palestine” applied almost exclusively to Jews and the institutions founded by new Jewish immigrants in the first half of the 20th century, before the state’s independence.
Some examples include:
The Jerusalem Post, founded in 1932, was called The Palestine Post until 1948.
Bank Leumi L’Israel, incorporated in 1902, was called the “Anglo-Palestine Company” until 1948.
The Jewish Agency – an arm of the Zionist movement engaged in Jewish settlement since 1929 – was initially called the Jewish Agency for Palestine.
Today’s Israel Philharmonic Orchestra, founded in 1936 by German Jewish refugees who fled Nazi Germany, was originally called the “Palestine Symphony Orchestra,” composed of some 70 Palestinian Jews.17
The United Jewish Appeal (UJA) was established in 1939 as a merger of the United Palestine Appeal and the fund-raising arm of the Joint Distribution Committee.
Encouraged by their success at historical revisionism and brainwashing the world with the “Big Lie” of a Palestinian people, Palestinian Arabs have more recently begun to claim they are the descendants of the Philistines and even the Stone Age Canaanites.18 Based on that myth, they can claim to have been “victimized” twice by the Jews: in the conquest of Canaan by the Israelites and again by the Israelis in modern times – a total fabrication.19 Archeologists explain that the Philistines were a Mediterranean people who settled along the coast of Canaan in 1100 BCE. They have no connection to the Arab nation, a desert people who emerged from the Arabian Peninsula.
As if that myth were not enough, former PLO Chairman Yasir Arafat also claimed, “Palestinian Arabs are descendants of the Jebusites,” who were displaced when King David conquered Jerusalem.
Arafat also argued that “Abraham was an Iraqi.” One Christmas Eve, Arafat declared that “Jesus was a Palestinian,” a preposterous claim that echoes the words of Hanan Ashrawi, a Christian Arab who, in an interview during the 1991 Madrid Conference, said: “Jesus Christ was born in my country, in my land,” and claimed that she was “the descendant of the first Christians,” disciples who spread the gospel around Bethlehem some 600 years before the Arab conquest. If her claims were true, it would be tantamount to confessing that she is a Jew!
Contradictions abound; Palestinian leaders claim to be descended from the Canaanites, the Philistines, the Jebusites and the first Christians. They also “hijacked” Jesus and ignored his Jewishness, at the same time claiming the Jews never were a people and never built the Holy Temples in Jerusalem.
حالا میشه بفرمایید کدوم بخش این حرفی که شما میزدین رو گفته؟!
اتفاقا دقیقا حرف های شما رو میخونم.من مشکلی ندارم که کشور جدید عربی به نام فلسطین تشکیل بشه که همون رای سازمان ملل هم بوده.از این جهت میگم که ادعای عرب ها در مورد وجود چنین چیزی از قبل مسخرست.اون منطقه جز جامعه بزرگ عربی یا نهایتا سوریه بزرگ بوده....بعد از طرف دیگه همین حرف شما در مورد اینکه در دنیای مدرن کشورهایی تشکیل شدن که در گذشته نبودن چرا نمیتونه شامل حال اسرائیل بشه؟!There Has Never Been a Sovereign Arab State in PalestineThe artificiality of a Palestinian identity is reflected in the attitudes and actions of neighboring Arab nations who never established a Palestinian state themselves.The rhetoric by Arab leaders on behalf of the Palestinians rings hollow. Arabs in neighboring states, who control 99.9 percent of the Middle East land, have never recognized a Palestinian entity. They have always considered Palestine and its inhabitants part of the great “Arab nation,” historically and politically as an integral part of Greater Syria – Suriyya al-Kubra – a designation that extended to both sides of the Jordan River.20 In the 1950s, Jordan simply annexed the West Bank since the population there was viewed as the brethren of the Jordanians. Jordan’s official narrative of “Jordanian state-building” attests to this fact:“Jordanian identity underlies the signific ant and fundamental common denominator that makes it inclusive of Palestinian identity, particularly in view of the shared historic social and political development of the people on both sides of the Jordan. ... The Jordan government, in view of the historical and political relationship with the West Bank ... granted all Palestinian refugees on its territory full citizenship rights while protecting and upholding their political rights as Palestinians (Right of Return or compensation).”21The Arabs never established a Palestinian state when the UN in 1947 recommended to partition Palestine, and to establish “an Arab and a Jewish state” (not a Palestinian state, it should be noted). Nor did the Arabs recognize or establish a Palestinian state during the two decades prior to the Six-Day War when the West Bank was under Jordanian control and the Gaza Strip was under Egyptian control; nor did the Palestinian Arabs clamor for autonomy or independence during those years under Jordanian and Egyptian rule.Only twice in Jerusalem’s history has the city served as a national capital. First as the capital of the two Jewish Commonwealths during the First and Second Temple periods, as described in the Bible, reinforced by archaeological evidence and numerous ancient documents. And again in modern times as the capital of the State of Israel. It has never served as an Arab capital for the simple reason that there has never been a Palestinian Arab state.Well before the 1967 decision to create a new Arab people called “Palestinians,” when the word “Palestinian” was associated with Jewish endeavors, Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, a local Arab leader, testified in 1937 before the Peel Commission, a British investigative body:“There is no such country [as Palestine]! Palestine is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries, part of Syria.”22In a 1946 appearance before the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, also acting as an investigative body, the Arab-American historian Philip Hitti stated:“There is no such thing as Palestine in [Arab] history, absolutely not.” According to investigative journalist Joan Peters, who spent seven years researching the origins of the Arab-Jewish conflict over Palestine (From Time Immemorial, 2001), the one identity that was never considered by local inhabitants prior to the 1967 war was “Arab Palestinian.”23در این مورد مطلب خیلی زیاد هست.مثلا اینکه در ابتدا اون national home قرار بوده اردن و همین طور کل این منطقه ای باشه که حالا تقسیم شده اما بعد اردن رو جدا میکنند و از منطقه باقی مونده 52% رو میدن به یهودی ها..Homeland for the Jewish people
این لینک ها رو هم ببینید.از همون ویکی پدیا هست که دوست دارین:
Mandatory Palestine
British Mandate for Palestine (legal instrument)
Balfour Declaration
Transjordan memorandum
McMahon–Hussein Correspondence
Faisal–Weizmann Agreement
Sykes–Picot Agreement
Paris Peace Conference, 1919
United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine
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یه چیزی هم خارج از همه این بحث ها بگم.من خودم شخصا و قلبا از اینکه میبینم داستان امروز به اینجا رسیده ناراحتم و دوست دارم سریع تر همه چیز تموم بشه.اما این رو هم حق یهودی ها میدونم که کشور مستقلی داشته باشن در اون منطقه.فقط به نکته برام مبهم هست که موقع طرح تقسیم چرا جوری شد که سهم بیشتر به یهودی ها رسید؟!البته این رو هم میدونم که عرب ها میتونستن تو همون سرزمین های یهودی بمونن در صورت انتخاب خودشون که همین عرب های اسرائیلی بازمانده همون ها هستن!!!
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